CIP condiciona aumentos salariais de 4,7% previstos no acordo a “novas medidas”

[MarcoAntonio]

Como o assunto foi abordado ao longo do dia, deixo aqui isto que me parece bastante informativo. A fonte é israelita (Jerusalem Post) e baseia-se em estudos conduzidos conjuntamente pelo Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, Ramallah e pelo International Program in Conflict Resolution and Mediation, Universidade de Tel Aviv.

Os números são de antes de ataque terrorista do ano passado e subsequentes desenvolvimentos.

Israeli, Palestinian support for two-state solution declines - poll

Both Israeli and Palestinian publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict.

Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis has declined to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a two-state solution. Slightly more Israeli Jews support one unequal state under Israeli rule than the two-state solution; but both publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict. Pairs of reciprocal incentives can raise support somewhat on both sides, showing some flexibility particularly among the Israelis. But trust is declining to new low points, and a majority of Palestinians reject four proposed confidence-building measures, while a majority of Israelis accepts half of them.

These are the results of Palestinian-Israeli Pulse: A Joint Poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah and the International Program in Conflict Resolution and Mediation at Tel Aviv University, with funding from the Netherlands Representative Office in Ramallah and the Representative Office of Japan to Palestine through UNDP/PAPP. The joint poll was conducted in December 2022.

Support for the two-state solution dropped significantly among Palestinians and Israeli Jews, from 43% in September 2020 to 33% among the Palestinians, and 34% among Israeli Jews.

Two-thirds of Palestinians and 53% of Israeli Jews are opposed.

Among Israeli Arabs, support remains stable at 60% and opposition at 21%, though this is significantly lower than their support historically, prior to 2020.

Why has support for a two-state solution declined so much?

Among all Israelis – Jews and Arabs – 39% in total support the two-state solution. This is the lowest level of support for this concept among Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all Israelis, since the beginning of the Pulse, in June 2016, and it is the lowest support for all groups since the start of the Oslo process in the early 1990s .

The survey tested the concept of a two-state confederation between the states of Israel and Palestine. Five components were identified, detailing aspects of freedom of movement; citizenship and residency for refugees and settlers; Jerusalem; and joint authorities for civic affairs. Palestinians and Israeli Jews supported the concept by almost identical percentages: 22% and 21%, respectively, compared to 59% among Israeli Arabs. Surprisingly, support in the Gaza Strip is significantly higher than in the West Bank: 34% and 15%, respectively.

The survey tested other alternatives to the two-state solution: (1) a one-state with equal rights for Israeli Jews and Palestinians; (2) a one-state ruled by one of the sides, with only limited rights for the other:

One equal democratic state is supported by 20% of Israeli Jews, 44% of Israeli Arabs, and 23% of Palestinians. These percentages are lower than those found in the previous Pulse in September 2020.

One non-democratic state ruled by Israel without equality for Palestinians is supported by 37% of Israeli Jews; one Palestinian state without equality for Jews is supported by 30% of Palestinians and 20% of Israeli Arabs. Compared to 2020, the current percentages indicate a slight increase among Israeli Jews and a significant decrease among Palestinians for this alternative.

Little interest in equal voting rights: In the event that Israel annexes the West Bank, a majority on both sides – two-thirds of Palestinians (66%) and over 70 percent of Israeli Jews (71%) – do not believe Palestinians should demand the right to vote. A large majority, more than three-quarters of Palestinians (78%), say they would not vote or participate in Knesset elections in such a case, but nearly 60 percent of Israeli Jews (58%) believe they will.

Attitudes continue to harden when presented with 11 detailed items of a two-state peace package identical to the one we presented in mid-2018 and September 2020. The basis of this plan is drawn from two state negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian leadership over the years. Support has been declining in recent surveys; in 2022 the trend continued, against the background of increased escalation and hard-line political developments in Israel:

A quarter of the Palestinians (26%), 31% of Israeli Jews, and 62% of Israeli Arabs support the detailed peace package. Compared to September 2020, current support among Israeli Jews is down by 5 points, and by 1 point among the Palestinians; but support among Israeli Arabs indicates a 13-point increase (support in 2020 was unusually low in that group). Support among Gazans is more than twice as much as among West Banker: 18% and 38%, respectively. Two years ago, support among West Bankers stood at 25% compared to 31% among Gazans. Among Palestinians and Israeli Jews, the current levels of support for the package are the lowest since 2016.

Large majorities of Palestinians reject all 11 components of the peace package; among Israeli Jews, four of the 11 components receive majority support, while large majorities of Israeli Jews reject five of the components

A Jewish majority among secularists and self-defined left-wingers support the package; among the Palestinians, significant minorities among Fatah voters, the non-religious, and the Gaza Strip support the detailed peace package.

The peace package comprises: a demilitarized Palestinian state; an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange; family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees; west Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and east Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine; the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty, and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty; Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic; the bilateral agreement will be part of a regional agreement with other Arab countries; the US and major Arab countries will ensure full implementation of the agreement by both sides, and the end of the conflict and claims.


The deeper divide

The hardening of attitudes is driven by deep concerns about the ultimate goals of the other side. Indeed, perceptions of the other have worsened significantly since mid-2017 and are currently at a low point, with the two sides a mirror image of each other.

The overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews (84%) and 61% of Palestinians think there is no peace partner on the other side, hence it is impossible to reach a peace agreement. Similarly, 17% of Palestinians believe most Israeli Jews have peaceful intentions, compared to 44% in June 2017 and 39% in June 2018, though the current finding is close to that of 2020 – 18%. On the Israeli side, 12% of Israeli Jews say the same about Palestinians, compared to 33% in June 2017, 35% in June 2018, and 19% in 2020. The largest percentage on each side, 52% among Israeli Jews and 44% of the Palestinians, think the other side wants to wage armed struggle or war, respectively. The overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews (82%) and Palestinians (75%) think the other side will never accept the existence of their independent state.

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Israeli Jews, 86% and 85%, respectively, believe the other side cannot be trusted; 50% of Israeli Arabs think Israeli Jews cannot be trusted.

Distrust is reinforced by a prevailing perception on both sides that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is characterized by zero-sum relations: “Nothing can be done that’s good for both sides; whatever is good for one side is bad for the other side.” Findings show that 65% of Israeli Jews, 46% of Israeli Arabs agree, and 71% of Palestinians agree with this dismal zero-sum characterization.


Conclusion

Our findings indicate that both Israeli Jews and Palestinians see the entire land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River (i.e., the whole land of Israel/Palestine) as belonging to their group through high and identical scores (93%). Also, the majority among both publics, 94% among the Palestinians and 68% among Israeli Jews, negate the idea that the land belongs to the other side as well, thus perceiving the territory as exclusive to them.

The Palestinian sample size was 1,270 adults interviewed face to face in the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip in 127 randomly selected locations between December 1 and 4, 2022. The margin of error is +/-3%. The Israeli sample includes 900 adult Israelis interviewed through the Internet by New Wave Research in Hebrew and Arabic between December 6 and 13, 2022. The number of people interviewed inside Israel is 500; West Bank settlers 200; and Israeli Arabs 200. The combined Israeli data file has been reweighted to reflect the exact proportionate size of these three groups in the Israeli society and to reflect current demographic and religious-secular divisions. The margin of error is +/-3.34%.

[mais_um]

Santa ignorância....

Ao vivo e a cores...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8CFL6gHgxI

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace ... t/lecture/

[MarcoAntonio]

Jerry Seinfeld says being target of pro-Palestinian protests ‘so dumb’

Jerry Seinfeld says being the target of pro-Palestinian protests at his comedy shows is “so dumb,” arguing demonstrators need to “correct their aim.”

“I love that these young people, they’re trying to get engaged with politics,” Seinfeld said on an episode of Bari Weiss’s “Honestly” podcast, released Tuesday.

“We have to just correct their aim a little bit. They don’t seem to understand that, as comedians, we really don’t control anything,” the 70-year-old comic said.

Seinfeld, who is Jewish, publicly voiced his support for Israel in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 attacks by Hamas and has denounced antisemitism.

Weiss, a former conservative columnist for The New York Times, recalled footage of Seinfeld being confronted by protesters who dubbed him a “genocide supporter” and “Nazi scum” while leaving one of her talks in February.

Dozens of students reportedly walked out of the Duke University commencement ceremony in May, ahead of Seinfeld’s scheduled speech.

The war in Gaza has killed about 35,000 Palestinians, according to the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilian and combatant deaths. Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to eliminate Hamas following the militant group’s Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel that killed about 1,200 people.

Asked by Weiss, founder of site The Free Press, about facing protesters, Seinfeld replied, “It’s so silly. It’s like, they want to they want to express this sincere, intense rage. But again, a little off target.”

“So that’s, to me, comedic,” he said.

Seinfeld traveled to Tel Aviv in December to meet with family members of people being held hostage by Hamas. In his interview with Weiss, he called the Israel trip the “most powerful experience” of his life, while appearing to choke up.

The former “Seinfeld” star, who’s largely shied away from talking politics throughout his career, compared political parties on both the left and the right to “mobs.”

“They’re mobs believing their own crap, right? That’s what a political party is: We’re gonna make up a bunch of nonsense and we’ll all agree to it,” he said.

“Let’s print up some bumper stickers and get out there kids — that’s politics,” Seinfeld cracked.

“We’re tribal animals. We’re social creatures. We look for agreement and consensus. We’re driven by agreement and consensus and mob rule — it gives us comfort, gives us certainty,” he told Weiss.

“It’s all BS,” he said.

The Hill

[BearManBull]

Não nos podemos esquecer, que Israel foi negligente no que se refere ao que se passava em Gaza, e tinha informações suficientes para não ser apanhada desprevenida.

Aqui concordo.

Quem sabe se a negligencia nao foi intencional para limpar o hamas...

De qualquer forma a morte de mais de mil civis tinha de ter uma resposta avassaladora. Os americanos em conjunto com os aliados mataram centenas de milhares no Iraque e Afeganistao. Nunca existiu tanta contestaçao social e parece-me bem mais legitimo o movimento de Israel.



Relativo a colonatos, ainda na semana passada visitei um jewish quarter em Marrocos. A unica coisa que nao vi foi judeus. Nao estou de acordo com colonatos. Mas tem de se considerar que o mundo todo é especialista em ostracizar judeus.

[PMP69]

Como é que eliminas um grupo terrorista que se mistura com a população?

Posso estar enganado, mas ou Israel apaga a Faixa de Gaza do mapa, ou nunca mais esta guerra acaba, caso não se verifiquem alterações no governo de Israel, claro.

Pedro

Queres que façam o que?

Ficavam apenas a assobiar? Isso deixa o Hamas numa posiçao de invencibilidade.

Pelo menos têm de capturar os lideres. Neste momento penso que toda a comunidade internacional deveria estar do lado de Israel e condenar actividades terroristas.

Uma vez termine a guerra aí já penso que deve exister outra abordagem.

Mas antes pelo contrário. Espanha nao só é pro Palestina como defende a extinçao do estado de Israel. Surreal.

Não te sei responder, mas se fosse eu a mandar, reforçava as fronteira com Gaza, e continuava a apostar nas eliminações selectivas.

Não nos podemos esquecer, que Israel foi negligente no que se refere ao que se passava em Gaza, e tinha informações suficientes para não ser apanhada desprevenida.


Pedro

[PMP69]

Ja agora se a Palestina realmente reconhece-se o estado de Israel nao devia estar a combater lado a lado contra o Hamas.

Era o mesmo que agora algum grupo paramilitar em Portugal decidir ocupar parte de Espanha e o governo ficar a assobiar para o lado.

Bear, o Hamas/Jihad Islâmica "correram" com a Fatah da Faixa de Gaza, na sequência das eleições presidenciais de 2005.

Hoje, a Fatah/ANP estão desejosos que Israel elimine o Hamas/Jihad Islâmica, para assim voltarem a governar a Faixa de Gaza, daí estarem calados, e pior, não denunciarem os novos colonatos que estão a ser construídos da Cisjordânia, alguns através da expulsão dos palestinos.


Pedro

[BearManBull]

Como é que eliminas um grupo terrorista que se mistura com a população?

Posso estar enganado, mas ou Israel apaga a Faixa de Gaza do mapa, ou nunca mais esta guerra acaba, caso não se verifiquem alterações no governo de Israel, claro.

Pedro

Queres que façam o que?

Ficavam apenas a assobiar? Isso deixa o Hamas numa posiçao de invencibilidade.

Pelo menos têm de capturar os lideres. Neste momento penso que toda a comunidade internacional deveria estar do lado de Israel e condenar actividades terroristas.

Uma vez termine a guerra aí já penso que deve exister outra abordagem.

Mas antes pelo contrário. Espanha nao só é pro Palestina como defende a extinçao do estado de Israel. Surreal.

[BearManBull]

Ja agora se a Palestina realmente reconhece-se o estado de Israel nao devia estar a combater lado a lado contra o Hamas.

Era o mesmo que agora algum grupo paramilitar em Portugal decidir ocupar parte de Espanha e o governo ficar a assobiar para o lado.

[PMP69]

Acrescentar que Israel é uma democracia.

Ninguém contesta isso, como também não pode contestar que a coligação governamental tem 5 partidos extremistas e não conto com o Likud.

A Palestina em Gaza é governada por um grupo terrorista.

Pior, com a presença de grupos como a Jihad Islâmica (Egipto e Palestina).

Primeiro devia-se acabar com a guerra que podia já ter terminado se existi-se o devido suporte a Israel.

Dos seu fornecedores militares (EUA 69%, Alemanha 30%, Itália 0,9% e Canadá residual), os EUA continuam a fornecer Israel e a um ritmos mais acelarado, nomeadamente no que toca a kits JDAM e bombas Mark 84 de 900 kgs.

A Alemanha basicamente fornece a marinha israelita, que não tem grande influência nesta guerra.

Segundo os inuteis de Biden, Guterres e Borrel em vez de andarem com propaganda marxista antes do problema ter acontecido deviam ter já feito pressao para resolver o problema de vez e forçado o Hamas para fora de Gaza a troco do reconhecimento.

Como é que eliminas um grupo terrorista que se mistura com a população?

Posso estar enganado, mas ou Israel apaga a Faixa de Gaza do mapa, ou nunca mais esta guerra acaba, caso não se verifiquem alterações no governo de Israel, claro.

Pedro

[PMP69]

According to Discussions between Senior U.S. and Israeli Officials; it’s believed that the Explosion and Fire which occurred Sunday at a UNRWA Refugee Camp outside of the Humanitarian Zone in Western Rafah and resulted in the Death of around 35 Palestinian Civilians, was caused by the Shrapnel from an Israeli Airstrike over 100 Meters from the Camp which Struck a Fuel Tank used by U.N. Workers.

https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1795453369454145659


Pedro

[BearManBull]

Acrescentar que Israel é governado por uma coligação de partidos extremista e a ANP nem tem uma liderança, e dúvido que venha a ter.

Acrescentar que Israel é uma democracia.

A Palestina em Gaza é governada por um grupo terrorista.

Primeiro devia-se acabar com a guerra que podia já ter terminado se existi-se o devido suporte a Israel.

Segundo os inuteis de Biden, Guterres e Borrel em vez de andarem com propaganda marxista antes do problema ter acontecido deviam ter já feito pressao para resolver o problema de vez e forçado o Hamas para fora de Gaza a troco do reconhecimento.

[BearManBull]

[PMP69]

Os Acordos de Camp David abriram o caminho para a solução dos 2 Estados, o que não veio a acontecer por diversas razões, nomeadamente pelo assassinato do Presidente egípcio Al Sadat, às mãos da Jihad Islâmica Egípcia.

Hoje, parece-me impossível que essa solução seja alcançada, pois para tal, são necessários os EUA, Israel, ANP e o Egipto, e os líderes de hoje não são Jimmy Carter, Menachem Begin, Yasser Arafat e Al Sadat.

Acrescentar que Israel é governado por uma coligação de partidos extremista e a ANP nem tem uma liderança, e dúvido que venha a ter.

Pedro

[BearManBull]

“Com os actuais meios de acesso à informação, a ignorância não é uma fatalidade, mas uma escolha pessoal"

Concordo o tempo do anti semitismo devia fazer parte do passado.

[BearManBull]

(...)ANNEX
Declaration of Principles on Interim
Self-Government Arrangements
The Government of the State of Israel and the PLO team (in the JordanianPalestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the "Palestinian
Delegation"), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put
an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognize their mutual
legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and
mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace
settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process.
Accordingly, the two sides agree to the following principles
(...)
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacema ... rds%29.pdf

“Com os actuais meios de acesso à informação, a ignorância não é uma fatalidade, mas uma escolha pessoal"

EDIT: É bom passar por aqui de vez em quando para lembrar-me porque deixei de vir...

A UN nao é um documento oficial.

Assinado pela Russia e pelos USA. Nao vejo uma assinatura de Arafat.

Enfim era o mesmo que dizer que um casamento era oficializado pelos pais da noiva e do noivo.


Apresenta um documento oficial assinado por Arafat ou por uma entidade Palestina a reconhecer o estado de Israel.

Nao existe.

[PMP69]

Bear, não sendo apreciador de Yasser Arafat, reconheço que lutou pelo povo Palestino, ao contrário do Hamas, Jihad Islâmica e mesmo a ANP.


Pedro

[mais_um]

(...)ANNEX
Declaration of Principles on Interim
Self-Government Arrangements
The Government of the State of Israel and the PLO team (in the JordanianPalestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the "Palestinian
Delegation"), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put
an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognize their mutual
legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and
mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace
settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process.
Accordingly, the two sides agree to the following principles
(...)
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacema ... rds%29.pdf

“Com os actuais meios de acesso à informação, a ignorância não é uma fatalidade, mas uma escolha pessoal"

EDIT: É bom passar por aqui de vez em quando para lembrar-me porque deixei de vir...

[BearManBull]

Isto ahora funciona por cartas?

Que nem sequer aparecem assinadas. É um mero documento digital sem qualquer vinculo com suporte fisico.

Na pratica Arafat nunca assinou nenhum documento oficial a reconhecer o estado de Israel.

[mais_um]

1. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization

2. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER:

September 9, 1993

His Excellency
Johan Jorgen Holst
Foreign Minister of Norway

Dear Minister Holst,

I would like top confirm to you that, upon the signing of the Declaration of Principles, the PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism, contributing to peace and stability and participating actively in shaping reconstruction, economic develoment and cooperation.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization




3. LETTER FROM PRIME MINISTER RABIN TO YASSER ARAFAT:

September 9, 1993

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestinian Liberation Organization

Mr. Chairman,

In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel

https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/22579.htm

[BearManBull]

Pedro Sánchez reconoce a Palestina como Estado sin modificar las fronteras de 1967
España realiza el reconocimiento de manera conjunta con Irlanda y Noruega, una década después de que el Congreso de los Diputados instase a hacerlo

Notar que a Palestina nao reconhece o estado de Israel.

Este acordo dos neo nazis marxistas progressistas foi feito sem ter em conta qualquer contrapartida por parte dos palestinos.

Quando a guerra acabar já sabemos quem vai pagar a factura para reconstruir. Sim sim o mesmo de sempre: o camelo do contribuinte europeu.

[MarcoAntonio]

Netanyahu calls civilian deaths in Rafah after latest Israeli attacks ‘tragic mistake’

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called an Israeli strike that killed at least 45 Palestinians over the weekend a “tragic mistake” and called for an investigation into the civilian deaths Monday.

The Israeli strike on the Tal al-Sultan neighborhood of Rafah targeted a humanitarian zone filled with tents, where Israel’s military previously instructed displaced Palestinians to shelter from the ongoing war against militant group Hamas, the Gaza Health Ministry said. The Israeli military claimed the strike killed two senior Hamas leaders.

“Despite our utmost efforts not to harm innocent civilians, last night, there was a tragic mistake,” Netanyahu said Monday in an address to Israel’s parliament. “We are investigating the incident and will obtain a conclusion because this is our policy.”

(...)

The Hill

[Barão de Soestrova]

https://www.cmjornal.pt/mais-cm/especia ... Principais

[BearManBull]

[BearManBull]

Djo entendo o que dizes que existia divisoes sobre a guerra no Vietnam , que existiam movimentos LGBTs, feministas e marxistas com alguma intensidade. Mas este tipo de propaganda nunca foi alavancado nas empresas ou nos meios de comunicaçao tradicionais.


E depois temos neste momento movimentos claramente nazis nos governos europeus. Repara no que diz esta entidade que faz parte de governo espanhol a favor do exterminio do povo judeu.





Acho piada apelidar-se de extrema direita na actualidade aos partidos que sao pro Israel. Isto só demonstra aquilo que eu sempre defendi aqui: os nazis eram socialistas radicais e nem sequer eram naciionalistas porque nunca defenderam o povo alemao apenas os membros do partido que é basicamente aquilo que os marxistas acreditam.


Vivi a queda do muro de Berlim quando era miudo, tu nao sei como viveste a guerra fria nao sei se te parece proporcional ou se estamos a caminhar para uma guerra civil inevitavel.

[djovarius]

É mesmo a 2ª guerra fria, não muito diferente da primeira. Veio para ficar e ficará até que um dos lados quebre, como sempre acontece...

IMO, existe uma diferença grande. Nesses tempos os regimes ocidentais eram livres e justos e os demais eram um absoluto calvario para quem tinha de viver neles.

Hoje em dia o ocidente já nao é livre e noutros paises ate se tem melhor qualidade de vida.

Pode ser, mas naquele fim de anos sessenta até meados dos anos setenta, parecia que a cortina de ferro poderia ganhar a guerra fria.
Havia uma fraqueza "social" e "cultural" no Ocidente muito semelhante à atual.
Havia e agora também há pessoal que parece uma quinta coluna de outros interesses...

dj